Curse

BLOODGOAT · Oct 14, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Let's keep flaming out of this. Just post why you like/dislike either skill and elaborate on the reason why.

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill]
As much as some people would hate me for it, I have to say that this is my favorite Monk elite next to something like, oh, Spellbreaker (even though they are used in completely different instances). While others prefer LoD for it's low energy cost, party-wide heal, I don't find it to be particularly beneficial to my play style.
When I play PvE, I wait until my party members (or heroes) are below 60% health and I spike-heal them. I, in my experience, notice that monster damage is largely concentrated amongst two or three single targets of the entire team. When these members begin getting spiked to below 50% health, Word of Healing (in conjunction with Holy Haste and Divine Boon) can take any one of my party members from 30-40% health to 90-100% health in an instant. Now while LoD is an (extremely) efficient party-wide heal, and I won't deny that for a second, it seems to only be useful (to me, at least) in massive party-spike situations, which when playing Prophecies (my main campaign of choice) is not exactly something that comes up every other mob. Maybe in the later missions, Hell's Precipice with the Sparks and their massive AoE output, but otherwise WoH seems to be the main heal in my arsenal.
I do everything with the exact same skill bar, the exact same hero setup, and the exact same henchmen. I always use WoH and I've encountered very little trouble. I always support myself with MoW running a BiP build, so I almost never run out of energy (Divine Boon

) and can constantly spike-heal my party. Sure, there are times when even a .5s WoH can't negate the effects of a BiP spam, especially when MoW is the monster's target of choice, and he does die, but he's the only one who dies, and those deaths are few and far between.
This is of course speaking out of experience with WoH only.

The other day I attempted to run a slightly modified version of my current healing build except for the fact I swapped WoH for LoD and attempted to do any of my usual boss runs (for skill capping) and it just didn't cut it. If anything, it felt like it required more team maintenance because I was either waiting for my party members to drop to less than 80% health before I'd cast it, unintentionally cast it while they were above 80% health and waste my energy out of sheer habit (not that it's really a problem, but it certainly wastes more energy than I'd like in conjunction with Divine Boon), or just spam my other healing skills because they honestly seemed much more effective. Obviously LoD is somewhat tailored to specific builds, but as a spike-healer that relies on my allies being under a certain portion of health for maximum efficiency, it just doesn't really have a solid place on my skill-bar.

What are your thoughts on the two?

Simath · Oct 14, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Since when do Mo/W have BiP? Did I miss something in the last update?

If you prot there will be no need for a "spike-heal". Although I'm not even sure wtf a "spike-heal" is. Do you say "3, 2, 1 heal!" on vent?

Faer · Oct 14, 2007, 06:23 AM // 06:23

I noticed you mentioned LoD being good versus a party-wide spike, or something. LoD is anti-pressure. Conditions, hexes, random environmental health degeneration, enemy players pushing multiple red bars down with constant melee trains... Pressure. Not spikes.

WoH is "okay", when it comes to PvE. It's not the most efficient thing you could be using, but it's not the most retarded thing either. Still not as good as the LoD/SoD Monk team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Since when do Mo/W have BiP? Did I miss something in the last update?

If you prot there will be no need for a "spike-heal". Although I'm not even sure wtf a "spike-heal" is. Do you say "3, 2, 1 heal!" on vent?

MoW = Master of Whispers.

"Spike-Heal"... Generally just means a big heal. Like WoH on a target below 50% HP, or something similar. It's a weird term, and I don't think it's really widely used.

Simath · Oct 14, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

MoW = Master of Whispers.

"Spike-Heal"... Generally just means a big heal. Like WoH on a target below 50% HP, or something similar. It's a weird term, and I don't think it's really widely used.

Thanks for clearing that up. Now I can go be a pro at PvE.

Age · Oct 14, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

I wouldn't use WoH on a spike that is at 50%health I would use infuse and LoD wouldn't do good on it either.I Like both of them for various reason LoD is good on a Hybrid and WoH can be used on Hybrid or just straight good healing in PvE.It use to be good in HA not to sure anymore I remember seeing Sno using it.

Winterclaw · Oct 14, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

If you play a healing monk your 3 real options are probably WoH, LoD, or HBo. In other words, if you don't have NF and want to go healing, bring WoH. You might be able to get away with blessed light if you have a big heal and some energy management.

Coloneh · Oct 14, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

I like LoD alot. the way i see it if you run LoD you have a great self heal so you can bring infuse, which does the job of WoH, only better. plus you get a spamable, cheap heal party. why bring WoH?

Sab · Oct 14, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

An LoD hybrid covers everything. Party-wide damage is cleaned up with LoD, single target damage is handled by Prot Spirit/SoA. WoH can only cover the latter unless you bring Heal Party. But if you're doing that, you might as well just use LoD.

Div · Oct 14, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Pretty much what everyone else said about LoD being great for partywide degen and damage. One big thing about WoH is that it requires the target to be < 50% health to be significantly more effective than something like...glimmer (which btw is already outclassed). With 2-3 monks/healers in the group, it's really hard to control that. It's a great skill if you have someone dedicated to giving you energy regen, but the effective heal per energy spent is much lower than LoD, which means you'll need to spam that along with other heals a lot more.

Plus, the first thing I do to stop bars from spiking down too much and having to mass heal it up is PS. That way, damage is very controlled and the healing from LoD becomes much more beneficial.

MrSlayer · Oct 14, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Thanks for clearing that up. Now I can go be a pro at PvE.

I believe he asked to keep flaming out. Flaming usually comes from PvP elitist players who think they are god. If you're just going to act like a jerk, I'm pretty sure your opinion in this thread isn't needed.

As for the topic...

I used to love to run with WoH. I was a huge heal-fan at one point, and the huge "spike heal" it provides can be awesome, especially if you run it with Holy Haste.

But...I am now more inclined towards LoD. It's the same energy cost and provides it's healing at a higher health level than WoH's bonus heal, meaning you can pretty much spam it (carefully) for cheap party-heals.

moko · Oct 14, 2007, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSlayer

I believe he asked to keep flaming out. Flaming usually comes from PvP elitist players who think they are god. If you're just going to act like a jerk, I'm pretty sure your opinion in this thread isn't needed.

and your accusation against the PvP part of the community wasn't flaming now? seriously, both sides flame, there's no difference, it's like Luxon and Kurzick, everyone thinks there's a difference when there's not really. and i don't think his comment was intended to flame any PvE player, just a bad joke that came across wrong like so many on here that cause fights (esp vs the two "sides" which has been brought up so often -_-)

on the topic with LoD vs WoH, if you manage to use WoH properly, as a "spike heal" as you call it, you are doing it wrong. generally, with the good protection options you have now, and the existance of both these skills

[skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill]
[skill]Gift of Health[/skill]

WoH has more or less lots it's purpose. you can prevent lots of damage in the first part, and these 2 power heals are more effective than WoH right now to clear up the rest of the damage that comes through.

plus there's always the big disadvantage that you cannot use WoH on yourself.

ninjaedit: there's also more AoE now, even in PvE, same with condition pressures, which make LoD king.

Darkpower Alchemist · Oct 14, 2007, 10:23 AM // 10:23

LoD+DB= No No. I don't believe the use of boon is condusive with spamming anything. Boon is cool in some builds, but the energy sink involved is serious. Not even LoD will look great in a boon build.

BLOODGOAT · Oct 14, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

plus there's always the big disadvantage that you cannot use WoH on yourself.

ninjaedit: there's also more AoE now, even in PvE, same with condition pressures, which make LoD king.

I just touch myself

As well as the condition pressure, that's word Words of Comfort is for. Actually looking at my healing build, it seems to be pretty solid even without the party-wide heal everyone so demands (even though I've honestly never needed it). Healing Touch self-heal, Dwayna's Kiss hex/enchantment heal, Words of Comfort condition heal, and whenever necessary (after a large sacrifice such as a couple BiPs) WoH for my dubiously-dubbed "spike-heal" >_>

moko · Oct 14, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLOODGOAT

I just touch myself

As well as the condition pressure, that's word Words of Comfort is for. Actually looking at my healing build, it seems to be pretty solid even without the party-wide heal everyone so demands (even though I've honestly never needed it). Healing Touch self-heal, Dwayna's Kiss hex/enchantment heal, Words of Comfort condition heal, and whenever necessary (after a large sacrifice such as a couple BiPs) WoH for my dubiously-dubbed "spike-heal" >_>

..and you could just put all of that into LoD and do the same or a better job with more space for hybrid.

yes, if you are going with a full healing build, WoH is surely better, but hybrid/LoD beats it.

also spamming countless 5E heals on your whole party that is degening from hexes and conditions instead of spamming LoD seems kind of weak. :P

(<3 touching, lol

)

Tab · Oct 14, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Seriously. Why take WoH and a load of non elite heals when you can do it all so much better with LoD?

Chthon · Oct 14, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Just do the math.

Assume 16 Healing. LoD is 85 per member under 80% for 5e (not counting the DF since it goes to you only, whether you need it or not); WoH is 212 + your DF bonus for 5e if, used properly. If four or more of your party are routinely under 80%, LoD always gives you more bang for your buck. Conversely, if damage is routinely focused on two or fewer party members, WoH is better. Which spell is better if three party members are routinely under 80% depends on your DF: At 13 DF, LoD heals for 1 more HP than WoH; At 14 DF and above, WoH heals for more.

To recap that:
4+ party members routinely under 80% --> LoD
3 party members routinely under 80% and 13- DF --> LOD
3 party members routinely under 80% and 14+ DF --> WoH
2- party members routinely under 80% --> WoH

[edit:
The above is at 16 healing. If you're running 13 healing (either because it's PvP or you're one of those people who think that you shouldn't run superior runes since they're now just so hideously unfashionable), the result is the same, except that you get the same healing form either spell at 10 DF. So:
For 13 Healing:
4+ party members routinely under 80% --> LoD
3 party members routinely under 80% and 9- DF --> LOD
3 party members routinely under 80% and 10 DF --> Either
3 party members routinely under 80% and 11+ DF --> WoH
2- party members routinely under 80% --> WoH
end of edit]

So, know your opponents (AoE? Mass conditions? Single-target spikes?), know your team's tactics (Do they strictly hold aggro on tanks, loosely do a frontline/backline thing, or simply rush the whole team headlong into aggro like noobs (or "duality" players)?), and then choose the appropriate skill for the situation at hand.

(Glad you didn't ask about Healer's Boon, since that math's a bunch trickier and I'm not sure I want to attempt it....)

Winterclaw · Oct 14, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Monks are one of those classes which should avoid Sup runes. You don't want your healers with low HP in PvP or PvE (mobs go after those with lower max health first). If you take a sup rune, then you should have vital boon on yourself at all times.

Batou of Nine · Oct 14, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

LoD is simply THE best party-wide pressure relief skill out there...

Like Coloneh said, an LoD heal/prot hybrid build covers all ground. For example, in HA and GvG you see WoH a LOT less, and LoD hybrids a LOT more. 2 LoD hybrids working together just gets better, one takes condition removal utility, other takes hex removal utility...

In PvE, just about the same applies, still the best party-wide pressure relief because of its spammability. Admittedly, not a great heal PER character, but its spammability more then makes up for that.

All in All, only time i take WoH anymore is in areas i know dont have as much AoE dmg, and in PvP, never.

cheers

Chthon · Oct 14, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Monks are one of those classes which should avoid Sup runes. You don't want your healers with low HP in PvP or PvE (mobs go after those with lower max health first). If you take a sup rune, then you should have vital boon on yourself at all times.

Sigh...
This has been gone over to death in the thread dedicated to discussing sup runes. There is a reasonable argument for not using sup runes. Not convincing, mind you, at least not to me, but reasonable. What you posted isn't it.
This idea of avoiding aggro through foregoing two attribute points is wrong for three reasons: First, monsters look at hp, AL, proximity, and possibly several other factors (weapon type and class are frequently speculated to be included) when deciding what to attack. 75 extra hp is never going to make your monk look less tasty than a warrior or paragon, and it's only going to maybe make it look less tasty than the ele standing next to you if the ele is using a sup rune. Second, it's not like the monsters just decide to go away altogether if no one is wearing a sup rune. They're still going to come after someone, and that someone is still probably going to be you. The most you can hope to do by messing with your runes is shift the aggro from yourself to another squishy near you in the backline. Maybe there's some slight benefit from that (you can use "other ally spells," if someone dies it's not the monk), but not one that clearly outweighs the benefit of having 2 more attribute points to use in combating the damage. Heal your 60 AL self at rank 16 versus heal the 60 AL ele at rank 14 -- neither option is hugely superior to the other. Third, what the hell happened to intelligent positioning? Sheesh! At what point did PvE monks forget how to stay back from the initial contact, remain in the backline, and kite if something notices them? At what point did we get so bad at staying clear of aggro that we need to spend 2 attribute points to make up for the fact that we're so bad at it?
In sum: This idea of giving up your sup rune to avoid aggro is just plain wrong. (For a reasonable, if maybe not convincing, argument for not wearing a sup rune, see Ensign's posts about 75 hp providing a "safety buffer" or "margin of error" -- while bearing in mind that you probably do not play in the same zones he does.)

In any event, I included 2 sets of figures specifically to avoid having to justify doing the analysis only at 16 Healing Prayers. Sigh.

Div · Oct 15, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Just do the math.

*bunch of numbers*

Numbers are great, but it really doesn't mean much. Those calculations fail to take into account the fact that mhenlo is faster than you and LoD'ed before you could WoH the target, bringing his health up above 50% and wasting the WoH. Also, there is a much higher chance for WoH to overheal a target, meaning the extra health would be wasted and isn't an effective heal. LoD in general prevents overhealing by how it works, and is much less of a problem with heroes stealing your heal. Plus spamming LoD on 40/40 set is really fun and takes very little effort.

If you have a tank holding most of the aggro, then it's better to go with just a healing seed and it'll cover everything anyways. Generally in HM you want to prevent red bars from going down as much as possible, and use LoD to clean up the mess. Constantly getting spike damage up and down is not healthy for your team or your heart :P